thought of the day

Discussion in 'General Archive' started by fourtwenty68, Apr 12, 2015.

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  1. fourtwenty68

    fourtwenty68 Board Analyst

    any dungeon and bosses that you cant kill solo you need a group,right?
    but why does this game multiply the mobs n bosses damage and armor and hitpoints ect,for ever person in your group?
    why we make groups is to take down them bosses and mobs we cant do solo.
    so having 5 people in a group should be easier to kill them,right?
    wrong ! not in this mmo,while other mmo's you can do that,this one is just wrong when it comes to groups for support and getting the job done.
    heres an example-boss has 10,000 hp, bring 1 person into your group,boss has 20,000 hp,bring 2 people in your group,boss has 30,000 hp,and ect.
    this is not realistic nor fantistic lol.
    a set dungeon(bosses mobs ect) should have the same stats when encountered solo.
    so take out the multiplying factor
    for every group member added,your not making it right,and your destroying the mmorpg gaming experience by doing this.
    mortis for example-keep him at a set stat,dont multiply the members of a group into what you think it should be.
    basically soloing in groups is not fun.
    so now instead of killing a boss ect,having got a group together,you were better off doing it solo.
    makes sence? well it does.
    lets say, i see this boss,he has 100,000 hp and 5000 damage,i need Help.
    so i make a group to go kill him.
    now with 5 people in my group he has 500,000 hp and 20,000 damage.this is not right.
     
  2. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    Your math is flawed.
    Since I am in hurry I won't do the math ... instead ... I will leave it to our math guru _Baragain_ . :D
    I can only give you direction and emphasize 2 things:
    1. We all know and can prove that 2+2=0
    2. If I spend 350-400 colorful essences soloing Gnob ... why am I spending 50-100 colorful essences playing in group?
     
    Trailboss1 likes this.
  3. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    Lol, I started reading and was thinking, "He doesn't understand how scaling works in this game." Then I see you @trakilaki calling my name and singing my song.

    There are two factors, increased armor/resistance and increased hp. However, these do not increase linearly. Also, damage does not increase at all.

    I don't feel like doing the experiments to see the exact amounts of HP the enemies in the hard map have, but I do know that it is less than
    double, triple, etc.
    How do I know? Someone did the work for me on the winter event for the big bear, and the numbers they reported were consistent with what I experience while playing this game solo and in a group. Also, the developers are likely too lazy to redesign their scaling equation.
    [​IMG]
    What you see here is a steady increase, but not what you are describing.

    The reason I don't like bigger groups is that the increase to the armor means I do less damage which means I recover less HP from my life drain attacks.

    This boss however is unique compared to some other scaling bosses. He is armor breakable, meaning that in a good duo of SW/DK, you can get massive damage really fast through use of a double armor break. Problem is when you have more people, it doesn't seem to work as well because people there are more opportunities to make a mistake (like using wolves when the DK needs maneuverability or a SW thinks a guardian would be a good idea :mad:) and then 4 people are taking on a mob meant for 5, and then someone dies while attempting to revive the dead player. Soon, Gnob starts summoning a bunch of the dragonspawn, the DK is chasing Gnob to regain agro, and it is all down hill from there. Moral of the story, less people means less mistakes.

    The other reason I don't like bigger groups is what I call "damage distribution." I have 1598-1869 damage (and a DPS of 4152) which is very high compared to most players. If I group with someone who has comparable DPS to me, we both carry roughly an even share of the load. However, if I'm grouped with someone who has half (or worse) of my DPS, then I am pulling 2/3 or the load, and they are pulling 1/3 of the load. If we go out to a group of 5, and all of them have half of my DPS, then I am pulling 1/3 of the damage and each of my team mates is only pulling 1/6 of the damage, meaning it feels like I'm working twice as hard. Using the numbers from above (the hard bear), solo, I'd be doing 543k. In a good duo, I'd be doing 408K. In a bad duo, I'd be doing 543k (same as if I were solo). In a full group with a bunch of good players (high dps), I'd only have to do 196K, but in a crappy group, I'd be doing 326K.


    In summery,
    Grouping:Good.
    Big groups: More likely to fail.
    Small group: Benefits of grouping without as many variables.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2015
    Dragenstein likes this.
  4. spiro_spula

    spiro_spula Forum Connoisseur

    Making small groups is an advantage because armor breaks stack, if nothing else. Optimum is one DK, SW and SM. No rangers, sorry 8). Stack up all the armor breaks and instapop whatever.
     
  5. Trailboss1

    Trailboss1 Forum Mogul

    Probably a select few remember but I knew a dev that worked for BP and got many posts deleted for my Snowden leaks. 6 months ago it use to be if your group only contained 1-3 players the stats on regular monsters was insignificant. 4-5 in a group and it's exponential.

    Like I said, that was about 6 months ago. Needless to say he quit BP and moved on to another company. He informed me that they may read the forums, but heed little to players demands or requests. Devs would suggest new content to the game and if that dev's content got added they got a bonus. They get regular pay for fixing bugs or what not. Hence why bugs and stuff don't get fixed. All the devs are about the paycheck. My friend had more of passion for his work, hence, that's why he gained employment elsewhere.

    And I wonder how long this post will last o_O
     
    Darwarren likes this.
  6. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    Long time ago when I was learning the IT basics ... I was on a traineeship. I was watching my mentor repairing customer's PC. I asked him ... why are you repairing the issue instead of removing it? He said: if I remove the issue now ... this customer will never ever need my services which is bad for the business ... if i do it with all the customers ... soon I would be unemployed. :D

    I can see the second point from my previous post has been explained.
    Sometimes ... some players are lying they are using essences (any kind) so the other players in the group are doing harder task compared with the situation if they were to do solo run on the boss (the first point of my previous post).
    Let us take the Fake Gnob as a example of a boss. If one player is not using the colorful essences other players are working harder and spending more resources (essences). Avoid those players.
    How can we be sure they are not using essences? For a start we pick a random group ... and we do closer observation. If the players in that group are doing the fast boss kills ... and are happy with the crappy drop ... that means that group is coherent, everyone is happy and no one in that group is cheating. If the players are fighting, swearing (mentioning closer family members) and threatening "I will report you to support ... I have a screenshot of this conversation" ... that means that one or more players in that group were not using essences.
    That is why we have an illusion :
    We can even prove that someone was not using essences by doing a simple calculation.
    Don't get fooled ... they will tell you 2+2=4 ... but that is incorrect ... because we are guessing that "someone must have been cheating" ... therefore he spent 0 essences. So 2+2=0 must be correct!
    2+2=0
    two+two=0
    tw(0+0)=0
    if tw=0
    than 0+0=0
    0=0
     
  7. Darwarren

    Darwarren Count Count

    "This statement is false."
    Is that statement true, or false?

    Maybe just entertainment in language.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2015
  8. fourtwenty68

    fourtwenty68 Board Analyst

    thx for feedback. u guys r awesome.
    but what im saying is say a spirit in oob is easy to kill solo,but even if 1 person is in a group it because twice as hard to kill(note:they r not shooting it,im shooting it,same spirit that was easy before you add more people now its harder to kill. this is not what groups r for.
    i grouped with my dk pal in event cause we were bored soloing,we found it easier to solo then group.
    creatures shouldnt get stronger when you group,right? then whats the point? when i can just solo it.
    i can say it any more clearer than that,but if someone can that would be great.
    im just trying to point out the obvious, so the math thing is just a thing.doesnt have to be correct.
    "lets say,your pal needs help to kill a creature you can kill easy Solo without any ess,but now your in a group and you need blue ess to kill the same creature you just killed solo without any ess,because for some reason it got harder.
    (hence grouping=more difficult)
    this should not be like that,see what i'm saying?
    i dont want to group certain maps because of this,its just better solo.
    sorry if i ramble on,but making groups is suppose to be easier,equal too,but definitely not harder than they are making it.
    it just makes for a less desirable experience than what it should normally be.
    i hear this often "hey lets group up map2. ok but only 2-3 of us, 4-5 takes up too many resources"
    you all find that familiar?
    thx again guys,for the input,just dont cut my head off:D
     
  9. BigPapa

    BigPapa Forum Overlooker

    I enjoy soloing for the fact that I can determine the pace and the target and make all the choices without having to coordinate it. And yes the lower HP makes things easier to solo. Karaboosa is a great example of that. BUT, I also enjoy the social aspects of group play and helping guildies get stuff done to meet there goals. Yes it can be harder in group.

    The biggest factor that group play adds and the reason HP goes up on bosses is synergy. If I can do 1000 damage to a boss solo and a SW can to 1000 to a boss solo together we can do 3000 damage to a boss because I get the effect of their armor break too. Throw in a DK that does 1000 dps and now we do 5000 damage and I can take off some defensive items and up my dps because he will take the brunt of the assault. This is of course a simplistic representation of the synergy that happens but it is why that happens.
     
    silverseas and _Baragain_ like this.
  10. Darwarren

    Darwarren Count Count

    If the difficulty of the map was held constant, no matter what the group size, then a group could complete the map in a very short time. (Otherwise weak solo players would never advance, and leave the game.) That leads to screamingly fast quest completion and advancement for group members. Which leads to meaningless repetition and boredom. Which leads to players making less purchases and leaving the game. Which leads to fewer paydays and bonus checks for the managers and staff.

    BigPoint's ideal situation is to maximize profit over the long term, or perhaps from financial statement to financial statement. That means keeping the current players busy for the longest time possible, without reducing the average revenue stream per player over time. There is a lot of applied economics in the final equation of what and when and why they do things.

    A side note is that, a tolerable amount of troubles may be good for their revenue stream. So, our catastrophic losses to lag and disconnects may not be so much an emergency for DSO and BigPoint. LOL on us.
     
  11. DesertKoala

    DesertKoala Forum Pro

    Fourtytwenty6, to answer your questions, my optimal group size is 2 maybe 3. I dont like solo. I'm not built for that and I play the game to be with friends. I dont like 4 or 5 unless we are working with people we really know since the 'scale' of monsters is/can be an issue.

    -----

    I know it's been said in older posts but I'll say it again here since it is related to the OP. The event and especially the difficult map are not for everyone. There is no lock-in guarantee that all game awards should go to all players even if heroically persistent.

    Perhaps this is a problem of expectation. Most players expect that with enough patience and pulled favors, they will soon be on a lion mount. The opening launch material from Greg and Twitch and Release announcements and Guides should state very clearly:

    1. Average amount of time required to complete quests and challenges. For example, if you knew it would take you roughly 35 hours of black pearl farming to make red pearls for all four(4) Fake Gnob challenges in order to have a pix-elated lion, you might say to yourself, 'na'.

    2. Event item to Currency table. That table should clearly label all Event-specific consumables that can be purchased in game in there various flavors of game currency. An example is the Red Pearl which can be purchased for peanuts by Draken or by a kings ransom as Ander. You can then weigh your options and decide if you would prefer to farm.

    3. Boss table. The boss table should include charts similar to the community one above about the Winter Bear. It isn't secret sauce and the community needs that table for two reasons:
    (a) determine optimal party size, and
    (b) caution junior Guild members to not embark on a path they have no hope of completing.

    These are reasonable things to do. But instead, lots of average or moderately strong players are crashing on the breakers and by the time Challenge 3 or 4 comes along and they realize they bit off more than they can chew, their resources are drained to zero. They would have been better off not starting at all.

    Net-net, many will have lion mounts, more will not, majority will be resource drained, and ALL will be frazzled.

    As an aside (for pure vent), I would love to see a Twitch feed of Greg fighting Demon in the Event. Change that, have any Dev at BP in his group. That should be a load of fun to watch. Then have them show their stats "IF" they succeed and caution the community that the bosses are epic, not just difficult and that it might be a good idea for not all players to try and tackle them. But my guess is that Greg would die a dozen times and the video would turn into a comedy.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2015
  12. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    That equation is always true ... but only if you quote it correctly. :D
    Entertainment or joke indeed. Only in the first part of that post (where I reply to Trailboss1 ) I am dead serious. :p
     
  13. Trailboss1

    Trailboss1 Forum Mogul

    I believe that's what Trakilaki was referring to. Sure, if you have a 2 man group the hp will increase slightly to compensate for the extra damage from the other player. If the other fella isn't attacking than yes, logic dictates that the monster will be slightly harder to kill.
     
  14. Knightofyourlife

    Knightofyourlife Someday Author

    I understand Why you are making this comment. Most people who answer will give you a scaling answer.
    The truth however is in order to make it much harder to carry F2P players in party with you and to hopefully force you to spend a bit more anderment than you intended to every time you team up for a big party game.
     
  15. Dragenstein

    Dragenstein Padavan

    I appreciate the posts related to expectations. Your ego makes you want to try for the big prizes, but time and money constraints have to be taken into consideration when you decide how much effort to put into any event. I finally realized that after I finished the "egg" quests (5 days for me), it was going to be too "draining" to continue on in the event.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2015
  16. DesertKoala

    DesertKoala Forum Pro

    I applaud you for making a cost-vs-benefit choice specific to your goals and resources. It's good to reassess and adapt.
     
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